Friday, March 03, 2006

Have a little talk with Jesus...

Do you know people who won't sing this song? Faulkner to-dos had a fit once when CornerStone sang this song...

I asked why once and someone looked at me as if I was a fool and said "Because we dont pray to Jesus, we pray to God." "Oh..." I said... made sense.

Wayne Jackson articel on this subject

He is a sound, conservative dude...

Me, Sam, and Tyree have had a back and forth email discussion about this... Same is a really good thinker... and he is already starting to see some "traditions" that the c of C holds on to, with no merit...

Here is an email from him I got today:

"...if there was a verse about this then there would be a contradiction in the Bible. Because they did pray to Jesus in Acts 2:24. If you haven't read that article by Wayne Jackson, take a look. He is a very conservative member of the church and he quotes some other conservative members such as Guy Woods.

We are told to pray to God, but we are also given examples where they prayed to Jesus. So it seems like we can do either. Now here is the part that I don't understand. The church of Christ says that we should try to be as close to the first century church as we can and do what they did, but we won't do this even after people see that it was done...

It seems to be a tradition to NOT pray to Jesus and that is the only reason why people don't. I also understand that many people just don't think that you can or should pray to Jesus, so if someone did then people might think it is wrong. Anything 'new'(actually it has been done for 2000 years) to any congregation should be taught first before it is introduced so everyone understands why it is right and okay to do.

One of the reasons that I think the church as a whole doesn't do it is because the denominations do. They pray the sinner's prayer to Jesus and believe they are saved. So we try to get as far away from that as possible and don't even pray to Jesus. "


bigsip said...

I actually think the opposite is true. We ONLY pray DIRECTLY to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, who in turn tranlate or mediate our prayer with God.

1 Cor 1:2 says,

to the assembly of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours:


James 5: 14-15 says,

Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

So, in essence, we pray to GOD, the "Godhead" when we pray.

Jesus is out Mediator, the HS is the translator who translates "groans" beyond words.

Romans 8:26 says,

In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don't know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can't be uttered.

To say we don't pray to any part of the Godhead is a contravention of the whole idea of prayer.

Anyway, I've been singing that song for a long tim as well as "Glorify Thy Name".

Some folks wouldn't lead the 3rd verse of that song that says, "Spirit, we love you, we worship and adore you..." because folks said we aren't supposed to worship the HS...

Again, we're told to worship "in Spirit and in truth..."

We also worship God (the Godhead) of which the HS is part.

In other words, I agree that this tradition has done something silly to the way some folks worship. I just wish folks would wake up and read the Bible.

mullinz8 said...

I think if you’re going to decide to believe that whole notion of the Spirit, Christ and God being separate but still all the same thing, then arguing who you’re praying to is a bit off. Christ knows the desires of our heart and I doubt the Godhead is sitting around at a switchboard directing prayers to one another while the other is making trees.

Jamison said...

Pretty funny Mullins...

I actually agree with you 100%... at least I hope what I beleive is true.

mullinz8 said...

Christ tells the apostles that the existence of Christ being God and man at the same time isn’t something they should try to understand and I think that’s something we should remember too.

There are a lot of issues that take the focus of our walk when the focus of our walk should be focusing on our walk.

Forms and styles of worship don’t bother me too much because I think God sees through all that jazz directly into our hearts. As long as that’s at least on the right track I hope that he understands that people today are just as short sighted as when he was breaking bread and sharing a decanter of vino.

We all need to fervently pray and study the scripture and while there are heavy handed suggestions as to how we are to worship but of all the ideas Jesus taught I remember things like “Love your neighbor as yourself”, “forgiveness”, “compassion” over the scripture clearly defining the order and structure of assembly.

(obviously that doesn’t exist…)

Jamison said...

We can't pray to Jesus because he isn't Lord God, but we can sing "Jesus is Lord"?

I have come to the conclution that the concept is beyond human comprehension, the concept of Jeus and God being the same, yet different.

Look at God in the Old Testement... one bad dude right? I mean, when He told Isreal to go to war with a country, He didn't just say "Kill the men", He said "Kill the men, women, children, and while you are at it, kill all their animals too."

He didnt blink an eye at wiping out Sodom and Gamora, much less blink an eye at the chick who just glanced back....

The dude who instictively reached for the Ark when the donkey cart hit a bump in the road... he just reached to save the Ark, and touched it... BOOM! He is dead...

So God was a no-nonsense guy back then. Then, all of the sudden, Jesus shows up, dies, and EVERYTHING changes. God isn't so hardcore in the strike-you-dead department. Though, those cats who sold their land and kept some of the money for themselves did get the death strike pretty quickly, but this forgiveness and mercy thing really shows through after the death of Jesus.

So they are the same, yet almost completely different.

God became a softy of sorts once he had a Kid, which I am thankful for. I'd probably would have been consumed by the earth or eaten by worms about 40 times already...

bigsip said...

I don't know, man.

The bible says God doesn't change.

But, our perception of Him and relationship with Him does.

God is still the God of vengence (see "Vengence is mine, saith the Lord...").

When man sinned, he changed the dynamic between himself and God. God gave commands and if the commands weren't followed, God punished man, simple as that.

I think we forget that NOTHING has changed, except the fact that we can now approach God through our High Priest, Jesus and Jesus blood eradicates our sins.

If we don't do as God commands, He has said over and over, we'll burn in Hell forever. That's much worse than eating worms or being swallowed by the earth.

God is still a God to be feared. A healthy fear of God is something good to have, too.

I'm not afraid of God since I live according to His Word, but I fear Him.

As far as the Trinity is concerned, I look at God the Godhead like an apple.

The red skin is Jesus. It's there for us to see and touch. It's the first, corporeal representation of God as man.

The white meat is the Holy Spirit, the Word we sink our teeth into and gain sustenance from.

The core with the seeds is God the father. He is the core o our understanding and he plants His seeds in the hearts of man.

Yet, all three parts are interchangeable since the HS plants the seed and Jesus plants the seed and there are physical attributes to all three and meat to all three.

And yet again, they're all three separate. You can easily separate the core with seeds, the meat, and peel back the skin.

But, an apple exists as a single fruit that begins as one and exists as one.

That's probably the best physical way to describe God as 3 and as 1 in my mind.

In any case, God doesn't change and that includes Jesus and the HS. They are from everlasting to everlasting.

Jamison said...

Love the apple image man! Good stuff!

Yeah, I certainly didnt mean to sound like I was saying that God has changed, but I suppose to us men, it looks as if He has, just because he isn't making water turn to blog and filling the land with frogs and stuff..

bigsip said...

Thanks, man.

I see what you mean, now.

Yeah, we change while God and His Word stay the same. Our perceptions change all the time.

Fortunately, we have the mirror of the Word to reflect our changes for the wrong and keep us on track.