Monday, April 17, 2006

Because I don’t want Jamison and Sipper carrying the weight I’ll add a bit more to the fold. Bill Wiese Hell Testimony

So I was on a conspiracy website, I can see Jamison crack a smile now, and one of the captions said something about some guy having been in Hell. Being interested in all things spiritual and others POV I decided I’d take a minute to see how cheesy the site would be.

It was a cheesy site but what I found was a very timid guy who doesn’t seem comfortable talking in front of a crowd and sincerely believes that he spent time in Hell.

I tend to go back and forth on people who claim to have had such fantastic experiences. After having watched the whole thing I still have one thought, why do I question something like this? This guy has tons of BCV quotes to support why he’s not crazy and actually went into Hell that sound very reasonable.

Why do we, as a body of believers, decide to consistently ignore that there is a battle going on for our souls.

No one on this blog questions the existence of Satan and his sway over the world around us so why does he get largely ignored?

Perhaps, just perhaps, we don’t know the true inner workings of God and he does communicate with those who he chooses. I mean this guy’s story is the exact same stuff that we can read about in the Bible and believe whole heartedly. Yes, Jesus changed a lot as far as salvation goes but he also set in place that as Christians we need to SHARE our faith and experiences in order to get other people to believe.

I’m beginning to think that by not addressing this issue we are creating and perpetuating the idea that everything is fine and good and that we shouldn’t be too worried as long as we keep our nose to the Biblical grindstone. There’s more too this though…

Why don’t we believe this guy, why shouldn’t we believe this guy? Are we too afraid to think God communicates with others before he communicates with us? I’m not talking about faith healing (which I should post about a dream I had last night) or speaking in tongues but some something else that is not clearly definable. Jesus never said once you apostles die you’re gifts will die with you. Is the Holy Spirit that gave them their gifts not the same one that we receive after the washing of our sins?


Jamison said...

Mullins, though you weren't with us last firday, you brought up a topic we discussed; the battle of good and evil in the spiritual world...

I am with you that we can not claim to know the inner workings or the true mind of God. We, as humans, can not understand it...

HOWEVER, to suggest someone went to hell and is back is basically saying a man died, and came back from the grave. The fact that someone did this after Jesus puts the reserection of Jesus as something that isn't that big of a deal, when in fact it is a HUGE deal.

If others can raise form the dead, then what is so special about Jesus.

God raised Jesus from the dead to prove His power to us.
I think the man just spent too much time in an office environment and is calling it hell.

mullinz8 said...

Good point, the guy is not claiming that he died or anything, just that we was shown the experience on a sort of guest pass what Hell was like because that’s what his fate was unless he got off his arse and started doing something.

This example of Hell is a bit harsh, what I’m really concerned with is “we”, as the church of Christ tend to ignore something that is very important for some reason.

Should we really discount other peoples experiences on the basis that it can’t be proven?

If you send me an email should I assume that you couldn’t send on to Brew without me knowing? I would think God emails a lot of people without telling folks.

Jamison said...

Ryan F had a dream he went to hell i think, then the next day he changed his major to Bible...

Perhaps God speaks to us in this way...

bigsip said...

I remember us discussing the topic with you, Mullins.

That's kind of how it came up the other night. Jamison asked about deja vu and I said that my thought was that the spiritual realm we cannot see around us is sometimes revealed to us in ways we can't understand.

I think some people have a heightened intuitive sense which allows them to understand and experience things someone without might not.

But, I don't think it's miraculous. I think it's a byproduct of being spiritually attuned. In other words, our level of faith and belief determines our sensitivity to the spiritual world which surrounds us.

I think the guy who thinks he went to Hell is confused. Hell is a spiritual realm like Heaven. To go there, you must die. We're all familiar with the verse on this:

Hebrews 9:27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,

So, if the guy died and went to Hell or Heaven, there's no coming back.

As far as miracles are concerned, Jesus did not explicitly say "You can't pass on miracles" but the example in the Bible is very clear.

The Apostles could pass on ONE miraculous spiritual gift and the person to whom that gift was passed could not pass it on to anyone else.

So, logically, once all of the Apostles died, miracles eventually died as well.

Otherwise, why would the verse about people being more blessed who HAD NOT seen Jesus and miracles be in the Bible?

John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed."

But again, our battle is in spiritual realms. We are physical, but also spiritual beings. Consider this verse:

Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world's rulers of the darkness of this age, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

We are warriors in a spiritual war, no doubt. We must never forget that and must always stayed tuned into the spiritual world around us. There really is no telling what we'll experience as a result!

mullinz8 said...

See it's that type of stuff that I do wonder about. I have a lot of faith in Ryan as a good and faithful person and he had a dream so real it changed the course of is life.

The same is true, perhaps, with this guy.

In some circles, you tell someone that a dream was the partial reason they decided to go into the ministry and they will look at you cock-eyed while others will demand that you tell them more about it.

What is the story of Revelation a dream or a God given vision?

This type of stuff, in modern times, is discounted when it might merit a bit more discretion.

Obviously not miraculous stuff but again some something else.

What was the gist of your discussion? I’m fascinated with this subject and am astonished we don’t spend more time discussing it.

Jamison said...

perhaps dreams are not in our heads after all but us entering a spirtual realm...

unlikely, but a pretty cool book/movie idea

bigsip said...

Well, the thing about Hell and Heaven is this, in my opinion:

We have verses from the Bible, movies, books, etc. which show us what Hell and Heaven are supposed to be like.

We know what we're supposed to do if we're reading the Bible, going to church, praying, etc.

So, why shouldn't we have vivid dreams about things like these?

Funny thing is, people who have these dreams/hallucinations consistently describe them in physical terms.

Even John had to fall back on physical descriptions when explianing what he saw while "in the Spirit" on Patmos.

But, the fact is that these places are indescribable spiritual realms.

I think it's valid to consider that God does reveal to us things we need to do. But, the place we first experience these revelations are "in the Spirit" or in His Word. Then, as we stew on these things, our inner-most minds and hearts retell these revelations in such a way as to motivate us toward being good people.

Again, it's about being spiritually attuned and ready to accept God's love, instruction, and grace.

bigsip said...

Something interesting I found...

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

"Principalities" are angels. If you read this verse in context, you'll see that it is saying that Jesus created not only the Earth, but the Universe, angels, and everything else!

Just thought it was an interesting verse, especially considering that we're talking about spiritual realms.

Brewster said...

I'm not really sure what your question is. There are a couple of problems with personal revelation.

If God comes down and whispers in Mullins ear, and then husstles over to tell Jamison something then this undermines the authority of the Bible.

You don't need to rely on the Word if you've got personal meetings with God.

This guy doesn't have any proof (and I haven't read it, but you haven't presented any) that he was really in hell.

If god does come down and talk to individuals, how are we to know who really heard Him and who is just nuts. Oral Roberts talks to god all the time, but I sure aint sending him my money.

Brewster said...

The rest of the discussion brings up questions I've had a long time. How, exactly does God work?

Say my wife is sick and needs an operation. I ask you to pray for her. How do you do that?

If you ask for God to heal her, does He come down from heaven reach inside her and take out the sickness?

If you ask for Him to be with the doctors, does he hold the doctors hand steady? If that doctor is a quack, does God somehow make him know what he's doing?

If you ask God to give her strength, does he come into her mind and make her think positively? Does he build up her spirit?

When I think of these things I go crazy. I believe God does many things to help us, but the hows are so far beyond me as to boggle my mind.

bigsip said...

I don't think too much about the "hows".

I think more about the "whys".

Why does God take care of us? Because He loves us.

Questions like this are easy to answer. The "hows" will only be revealed in Heaven. I can wait till then to know.

But, I still think we need to try as hard as we can to be very tuned-in spiritually while we live on Earth.

We are spirit, soul, and flesh. I want my spirit to thrive and my soul to live.

That way, when I get to Heaven, my soul and spirit will be in good shape!

Rachel said...

Sometimes I think God gives circumstances a little "nudge" to make things happen. Like he sees this set of possibilities over here and that set over there, and arranges them the way they need to be for whatever purpose. I know there have been times in my life that I've said, "Wow, I'm glad that was there/happened/didn't happen..." and it didn't have to be that way but turned out for the better. In other words, I believe God takes the materials and circumstances He has to work with (which He set rolling in the beginning) and finds a way to make it "work together for good."

bigsip said...

I agree. God knows what we need. He leads us where we need to go.

Read Psalm 23. It's all about being led by God and His providence. Always comforting...

Jamison said...

I will have to agree with Rachel. I've had so many nudges that I think I am getting bruised.

Something no one has brought up yet is that We Are Spirits In A MAterial World.

Jamison said...

-The Police

Brewster said...

You know sting was an english major

Jamison said...

CLASSIC!!! (Laughing)

bigsip said...

Really?!?! An English major?!?!?!

We are spirits in a material world...

I always thought he was saying "abstinence in a material world", though.

I don't think we concentrate enough on our spiritual selves.

I'm glad we're having this conversation.

mullinz8 said...

Brew I guess your connection stops right there…

Oh wait, you’re both dead sexy.

Cripes this string could get really divergent quickly. I’ll try to stay near the topic.

I don’t know about the whole praying for things I mean God knows the outcome of our lives and all the finite bits and pieces we don’t even notice. In the OT several folks prayed and petitioned to God to change his mine and he did. Do people really hold so much sway over the Supreme Being, I don’t know?

I believe in prayer and I try to pray often but the majority of my time in that act is of the thankful nature. When ever I pray for some sick person I pray their experience isn’t painful and on the behalf of the family that illness is affecting that if Gods will can’t be understood then hopefully it will be accepted with ease and confidence. This world is not for my desires to be catered to, it’s for me to see Gods desire through.

When my boys were in the hospital I always prayed for the understanding of Gods will to be shown to me. I couldn’t tell anyone that because it seems crazy that your own boys are dealing with very serious health issues and you’re praying to understand and stay faithful if God takes him. It makes tears well up thinking about it but it’s what I need to do. I’m very fatalistic but I think that’s, for me at least, part of what faith is.

I think God does shove us towards a direction while still allowing us to somehow make our own destiny. Sometimes I think that Satan is providing us with a lot of opportunities and it’s up to us to choose the “higher road” option. Wonderfully no matter the considerations, God has a stipulation allowing us to always return to him. I wonder about how much he leads us and how much he provides other options for us to choose. That freewill is a kicker you know.